@Torah Worldwide right and wrong is also subjective in the framework of religion the western values come from liberal enlightenment values not Judaism of christianity individual freedoms are concepts that predate Judaism. I think morality can be objective without god. Well being of society is a fact which we want otherwise we wouldn't survive humsns tend reduce suffering that's not preference thats an objective truth.even with in religions the question comes up why is what your god doing is good? Why is it the you'd say well he said so that's not valid reasoning you are inplying your bias preference morality on the basis that what god does is good because he says you cants convince people other religion either because ultimately it's based your preference why prefer Jewish ethics than islamic ethics. Also religious is morality corrupted old orthodoxy judaism has apostatasy laws which perhaps you dont like says that your moral world view is still run by preference and cherry picking. Religions are one of many dangers to society . Persecution of scientists before scietific revolution and using Judaism philosophy to justify violence against innocent canaanites women children. Hanging of homosexuals this how barbaric religion can be

@Torah Worldwide Exodus 22:20 (literal meaning) “Whoever sacrifices to other gods, and not to the Lord alone, shall be utterly destroyed.” This is a problematic moral outrage Ofc this a pathetic god who calls himself all loving . Deuteronomy 17:2–5 (apostasy / idolatry law) “If a man or woman among you… is found doing what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, to go and serve other gods, to worship them, or bow down to them, the man or woman shall be stoned to death at the gate of that city.” There you go so called religion of tolerance and "west built judeo christian" nonsense again . This isn't mocking or ad hominems calling out what your god really isnt mocking its truth its not my problem if i hurt your feelings.i keep telling your moral truth claims are still based upon opinions and preferences not more different than subjective moral u accuse me of having. Why is it that any other moral code is corupted than yours? Since muslims believe in their god pathetic god what makes you say their religion is corrupted either its still lies on the fact that u prefer torah moral code than islamic moral there's bias still in your religion Also you act like all religious believers are perfect humans when the so called religious people them selves too commit sins evil deed and etc doesnt make any difference atheists were more generous secular humanistic organisations have donated millions or if nor 10 millions to statving people and we have done more merciful acts with the need to believe in god because we believe well being is the ultimate goal to happiness which is a fact that exists regardless of opinion bias . Christian facism and Judaism religion facism not ethnicity has brought misery suffering to people in general we see this west bank. Individual freedoms predating Judaism Individual freedom in ancient Mesopotamia Civilizations: Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians (~3000–500 BCE) Laws like the Code of Hammurabi (c. 1750 BCE) existed

@Árpád Heszó marxism is an economical ideology not theological ideology marxism used atheism second to communism to persecute richer class people

@Torah Worldwide my morality isnt subjective. The morality i subscribe to is utilitarianism and wellbeing which factually objectively exists . You keep strawmaning me . Even in your case morality in religion is still subjective based on biased opinion u still make preference to Judaism ethical code than islamic ethical code or christian ethics. West is built on liberal enlightenment values which its most biggest inspirations are from gree roman law who established first concept of democracy and human rights predating judeo christian nonsense. Also your claim on animal morality is bullshit. Psychological and analytical data reveals that animals have morals that are result of natural tendency it isnt more different than humans Either ancient civilizations Mesopotamian or even cave men did altruistic stuff taking care of weak and pro found studies have shown animals have sense of justice fairness. Its not instinct. Chimpanzees also are smartest creatures just like humans and christians kill jews nazism and christians persecuing jews and jewish extremists persecting west bank Palestinians every chimpanzee isnt a good Chimpanzee Either. They have altruism and fairness justice ethical codes and hierarchal leadership. Torah morally corrupted allowing female genital mutilation and genocide of canaanites and innocent civilians it doesn't what the context is your "all loving" god is the reason people suffered. An all loving god would have made it very clear in the text not to kill innocent civilians and kill the combatants. Marx wasn't atheist first and communism second atheism is second to his ideology what inspires communism is he revolution fetish there's nothing theological abt it Religion is infact dying and cry abt it 😂 christian facism and Judean facism will eventually die out all your theocratic bs eventually will and has died out thanks liberal enlightenment values and fre thinkers. You keep strawmaning me everytime never have i said i want state atheism no body said that . We want secular democracy which we have now on the verge of being taken control of christian facism